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Guild Masters
March 1st, 2013, 05:08
Hello testers!

We have already set the equipment bonus and the squad’s sizes and stats, so the stats used in combat are already definitive and we are currently reviewing the combat system.

We base on results of millions of combat from simulations, as well as the real combats recorded from the beta-testing, but we’d like to hear how the user is feeling the combats. If you have something to share about combat, this is your chance!

We will review all the stats affecting the combats: character’s attributes and their influence in combat, chance to hit, damage, bonuses to several attackers hitting the same target… Leave the active skills aside of this discussion, since they will be balanced later, but passive skills should be in consideration here, as they were considered on the step one.

How do you feel the combats against the monsters with the same level that your size? Or they are lower or higher than your size? When they are one big monster or when they are several smaller ones? How do you feel your hits and your damage?

Here we can also affect the balance of different guilds. Every guild has weakness and strengths. If you think that some of them (related with the combat) should be increased or decreased, you may expose it here. For instance, a basic fighter should beat any other basic character in duel (it’s their job!), but it should not be certain for well-developed characters as wizards base their power on spells and scouts on their skills. And definitely, a diverse, balanced party will should beat a pack of fighters or a bunch of wizards, as the weakness of a member may be covered by the strengths of a companion, getting a stronger party.

These changes should be final before activate the PvP and remember that any change on the combat will affect both, players and monsters!

Updating:

We are making these changes to the combat. They will be uploaded with the next update. These changes pretend to be final, though we probably will make some fine tunning.

- Overwhlemed target for multiple attackers to a same target has gone. This bonus will no more be applied. Instead, the target's defense will be divided among the players, weitghted by the attaker's ATT score. For instance, attacker A with att 200 and attacker B with att 50 are hitting a target with def 125. Attack A will find a defense of 100 and B will find a defense of 25.

- Defense attribute is now more important in fights. Now, a higher defense will avoid more hits. Furthermore, combat formulas to hit as been noticeably changed.

- Defense action has been separated on 4 different specialized actions, one for guild: Parry for fighters, Defense for priests, Dodge for scouts and Deflect for wizards (former dodge skill is now called lightning reflexes). They are based on different attributes depending on the guild (not necessary their main attribute) and they don't work in the same way. Priests has been benefit here being Defense the best one.

- A minimum damage has been set. We won't see again a hit for 2 HP with a 200 ATT.

- Members in Squads will last more time. They will be weighted by their own vit and not for the vit added to the squad. So now the main character will may "receive damage" though members in squad are still alive. Consecuently, they won't be blown in the first hit.

We are still studying more changes, on the damage and the length of the combats.

Isildur
March 1st, 2013, 07:47
Great news!

I have one question about combat system: is "defense" action effective at all? In the various test I've made using it I have seen no influence in the combat, or even worse, it looked to me that using it made it easier to get hit :S. Is that only a perception? I admit I have not performed a hundred tests, but only a few dozens, so it might be just an impression I have.

Alex
March 1st, 2013, 08:59
Currently, Defending will add your ATT score to your Defense, so this action will be as effective are your Attack score is. This is also subsceptible to be changed at this point ;)

Rastlin
March 1st, 2013, 09:08
That makes the skill Magic Shield pointless to use for me.

Alex
March 1st, 2013, 10:50
That makes the skill Magic Shield pointless to use for me.
But Magic Shield last for the whole combat, so you may cast magic shield and next turns, defend and get both bonuses, so I think there is a point. But please, as we said before, don't discuss on this thread about the active skills, they will be adjusted later and we must set the combat without skills.

Btw, a change being considered was adding to the DEF only ATT/2 and not the whole ATT, so feedback as Isildur's is very useful here and now to take these decissions.

Zab
March 1st, 2013, 12:24
I have collected some personal stats of a few players and I use them here with permission, but will not give out character's names. I will mostly focus on personal stats, but even with squad numbers that I have seen, the situation does not improve. I will focus on attack and defense scores.


I do not know if this has been a trend since you have removed a lot of the dam red equipment, but it is my understanding that some players were building themselves defensively before the nerfing anyway.

I also understand as players we can build ourselves as we see fit and that we all have a skill set that can be used (but so does every other guild).

Fighter, Level 42 (uses collected diamonds and/or gold to purchase equipment)
Attack: 920
Def: 958

Priest, Level 38 (uses collected diamonds to purchase from Blacksmith offers mainly)
Def: 986

Scout #1, Level 42(an under-developed character who has mainly relied on gifts from masters)
Attack: 750
Def: 686

Scout #2, Level 42 (uses collected diamonds to purchase most items)
Attack: 914
Def: 710

Scout #3, Level 49 (uses collected diamonds and also has items purchased with real money)
Attack: 1213
Def: 895

My main concern with these numbers is: As 'Masters of Defense", it looks like the Scouts are lacking. The level up of 10 free def points and the Dodge skill is not giving Scouts anywhere near the def that other guilds can EASILY make for themselves. While I understand priests should have the ability to create a higher def, should it be that easy? And with the fighter already easily making attack and vitality, is it ok that we EASILY give them very high defense numbers too? The fighter gets over each Scout listed here with their attack numbers.
The only Scout listed here who has a bigger attack than the fighter's and priest's def is one who has used real money to make themselves a 'developed' character, and by the time the fighter or priest is of their level, well... will they be able to get over those defenses then...? If a player must be many levels higher than a fighter or priest to beat them, does that not sort of screw up your theory about well-balanced in levels for parties?

Must every guild but the fighters spend money, so they can beat the fighter?


The Fighter as the End All to Be All Character

I GET that fighters should be tough. But your average player shouldn't be forced to pay to beat them. I fear that making the fighter the 'ultimate character' will have results like this: they will realise that single play will be more beneficial for them as they will KNOW they can beat 98% of the other players they can go up against. So they will go after people who wish to play alone or those who cannot get in a party. The solution is not saying these people should just join a party. I will remind you that you even now you have many players who prefer to play this game alone (because they do not like other people, because they can only log in a few times a week, because leveling can be faster alone, whatever....).

Alex
March 1st, 2013, 13:22
Thanks this is useful information for us. Not just the numbers, but the way how they got those scores.

Of course, fighters must not be the ultimate character. Though they may have advantage in lone fight with basic characters, they must be beaten with skills and spells. They are not still being beaten? Well, we are here, working to get it and trying to work along the community. We published our roadmap, and we express everyday our willing to get the balance. Or you really think that we want to force player to beat fighters? :-/ We are providing ways to the community to take part to get this balance. This thread is open just for that reason. And this should be used to detect unbalances and suggest solutions.

Well, about the guilds stats, these are my thoughts:

I don't think that scouts be the masters of defense. When I hear master of defense, a paladin or an armoured cleric come to my mind. Scouts should have the higher natural defense due to their agility, increased by light armor, but the final defense should be surpassed by heavy armor. It works this way in every role-playin game, tabletop rpg or computer rpg that I have played. So yes, fighters and priests have access to a heavier armor, which are also more expensive. They are also in the front line of the combat. I'm sure that many of them would change their armour for a spot in the second row :D
In the other hand, scouts are more polivalent. Leaving aside the bonuses on party size and bonus to experience, they get a higher amount of energy to use skills, and have equipment with bonus to energy. With skills working, energy is the more important score. For instance, with Aimer Shot you get 5 times your energy in Attack. So this is what I conclude from all this is that when we review the active skills, we must be sure they are useful. Also we could think something to give priests a bonus defense over fighters, as a bonus on the defense action or a natural % bonus on the armour equipped.

What are you you putting forward then, to lower fighter's defense compared with scouts defense?
- Reduce fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?
- Increase cost of fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?
- Any other idea?

Zab
March 1st, 2013, 13:50
But you give Scouts the highest allotments in defense, which SHOULD mean we are rather like 'masters'. The fighter gets attack as his main because he is supposed to be tough. HE IS. The wizard and priest gets energy because he is supposed to use spells and prayers. THEY DO. Despite the fact that you see an "armored cleric" in your head means nothing when you gave defense as the main skill to a scout and not to them...... Every other guild's main WORKS for them, but as you can see from the numbers, it doesn't really work for the scout. It doesn't make sense to say we have 'the high ability to dodge' (as it says on the character description), if we can't. Looking over the numbers, you see there is little chance to dodge a fighter and probably not many wizards either....... From the numbers I have provided you can see the difference between fighter's attack and scout's defense can be in the 100s of points range. It should be a closer contest between main attributes.

I do not know if you should mess with equipment numbers on fighters or scouts, if you should up a scout's dodge skill or if you should just give scouts a different main attribute.

Lukasz Kanarek
March 1st, 2013, 13:55
I agree with Zab, Fighters should not have so mutch "free" defense, if so maybe other classes should have "free" vitality?
But i quite don't understend why scouts whould need to have so mutch defense? they're on back line, like wizzards, and wizzards have like 100 def max. It's just don't make sense for me. Maybe if you really want to play solo, but it should not be like scouts/fighters can easily play solo and other classes can't.


I think that every class should have at least one passive skill that help party in fights. Now i can only see priests passive skills, and they're weak. Wizzards could have something like +mag damage for all, it would be nice.

More about fights:
Dying in 1st round is not fun! :(
Being one shoted by monster is not fun! :(
Priests need buff.
Wizzards need buff.
Monsters should have more vit!, but mutch weaker attack!.
Average fight is like 2, 3 rounds, I think it's too short!
Because of that fights don't need any strategy, we don't need to use skills and potions, many skills is useless(e.g.Poison Cloud:1 DAM /SL every turn).

;)

Zab
March 1st, 2013, 14:32
Lukasz, as someone who played solo for quite a long time, I personally think vitality is the most important attribute to have, but taking that into a party is not always best then because the party needs you to be higher in other things, like attack or energy. The only guild I worry about through lone play is the priest. If they build themselves as descriptions say they should, the game is crazy slow for them and I have known a few priests who have quit well before reaching level 10 in the game, so lone play as this character isn't in a very good state. I might add something in the description of priests that say they thrive better in a party, so new players will realize lone play will not be as beneficial to them as to other guilds. :)

I have to agree, it doesn't make sense that Scout is a dodger, but not really. Both priests and wizards have energy as their main, maybe attack should be the main of both scouts and fighters.

Rambo Leblic
March 1st, 2013, 14:44
For me, the attack and defense skills in a Priest are not serve much. Our ability to attack is ridiculous, compared with other gilds and defense, in all my time playing, I have not been able to determine if it works or not, but I use it a lot, praying that the monster did not reach my . I think it would be a good idea for priest that we will have a Super-defense or something like that

Alex
March 1st, 2013, 15:18
...
I do not know if you should mess with equipment numbers on fighters or scouts, if you should up a scout's dodge skill or if you should just give scouts a different main attribute.
The scout was not thought to master any attribute. They are more polivalent and have more balanced stats. In their origins, they had no main attribute, but we set one to make all more homgeneous.
Instead a main and a secondary attribute, we could give them three secondary atributes (no main), and get +5 to att, def and ene. However, this will make priests the onlu guild who are not getting forced points to att on leveling up.
Also, we could give them only two secondary stats: +5 to def and ene, what would leave them 15 free points to distribute, but this would raise complaints from players in other guilds who also would demand more free points.
What people think about these?



More about fights:...
;)
I agree most of your points about the fights, you exposed the most important things to be changed at combats, specially the one about the lenght.
When combats are balanced, that is, similar sizes the attacker and the target, we designed the fights with our simulators for an average length of 10-12 turns. The first we found at the start of the demo is that people use to avoid balanced fights and choose lower quests to avoid damage. We realized that it's more profitable make a lower quest several times than higher quests less times. As a result, the lenght of the combats has been decreased. Our stats from the demo throw an average length of 4 rounds. Well this must change. And these are my proposals:
- Amount of damage from attacks would be decreased. This will make fights longer and there will be less one-hit deads.
- Bonus to damage for multiple attackers is being reviewed. If we remove it, it will decrease damage from multiple opponents attacking you at the same time.
- This will increase effect of spells causing direct damage, but skills will be reviewed later anyway.
- When we review quests, they and their monsters will be reviewed one by one. Their stats will be adjusted and then it may be a nice idea increase vit and lower att.


I might add something in the description of priests that say they thrive better in a party, so new players will realize lone play will not be as beneficial to them as to other guilds. :)
You are right. Also we could add a note for fighters as they will be the most easy to play, for unexperienced players.


I think it would be a good idea for priest that we will have a Super-defense or something like that
I also think so. They are really powerful for their parties but are weak to harm. Indeed, they were thought so. But I agree they must be boosted in defense/damage reduction. I suggested before about giving them some bonuses to total defense or to the defend action. Do you have any suggestion?

Alfgut
March 1st, 2013, 15:43
Also we could think something to give priests a bonus defense over fighters, as a bonus on the defense action or a natural % bonus on the armour equipped.Yes, please! :)
- Reduce fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?- Increase cost of fighter exclusive equipment bonuses?- Any other idea?No, please! :(

Zab
March 1st, 2013, 15:59
Alex wrote : (I have to do it this way, I am so bad with quotes....lol)

Instead a main and a secondary attribute, we could give them three secondary atributes (no main), and get +5 to att, def and ene. However, this will make priests the onlu guild who are not getting forced points to att on leveling up.

I say:

What about +5 to def, energy and VIT, instead of attack? Without having attack as a main attribute, scouts can come close to a fighter's attack currently, if they put some work into it.

Edit: although, I do not know now that I think about it, about your (and then my) idea. That would only leave 5 points to distribute and I think players might complain about that too. Maybe on the level up you could go 4, 4, 2 in whatever you guys choose..... or 5, 3, 2.....

Another edit: errrr... or maybe just go with your idea about 5, 5, 5 since obviously I forgot to count properly or forgot that there is 25 points on each level up or something this afternoon.... rolls eyes at herself.

Lukasz Kanarek
March 1st, 2013, 16:03
For me scouts are good, got some nice dmg and skills. You can just change the description that defense is not the main atribute, and maybe give them more energy.

Priests need to have more vitality. Defense atribute is weak imo, random doge is just not so good. You said that you want priests to be a tanks in the party, so they should have more vit then fighters, and def should lower taken dmg by some %.

Zab
March 1st, 2013, 16:11
But you have scouts in your party who have put a decent amount of their own money into the game, Lukasz.... just as an aside to think about. Your average scout is not causing anywhere near the damage those in your party can...... :) Just sayin'

Kurilia
March 1st, 2013, 19:30
Rambo Leblic says:




I think it would be a good idea for priest that we will have a Super-defense or something like that

Alex:

I also think so. They are really powerful for their parties but are weak to harm. Indeed, they were thought so. But I agree they must be boosted in defense/damage reduction. I suggested before about giving them some bonuses to total defense or to the defendaction. Do you have any suggestion?

I say:
I agree with Rambo. We're always dead priest. As I said in another thread, if we are not connected for an hour, we stopped earning XP. That means that our character is not balanced as the others.
If I have to choose, I prefer defendaction. There quest where attackers are less hard and Priest holds up well and others where we cleared the first blow. Experience tells you where you have to increase your defenses. We lost a lot of defense since we can only have RD in breastplates and shields

Zab
March 2nd, 2013, 01:30
I have been thinking of this super defense for priests. I think they can already have it based on numbers of priests I have seen. But this is Beta and if the plans are for players not to receive diamonds as a log-in bonus when the game is released, that may change somewhat. The priests have a Shepard skill. If you want to give them more defense AND attack, I think this is the place to do it. I think you should be generous.

However, Rambo has made me wonder with his comment, "I think it would be a good idea for priest that we will have a Super-defense or something like that"


Priests should have super defense. In lone play. I am still troubled over this fighter as ultimate player. Because I still see it happening. In a party, you have much higher chance to kill a fighter. But not so-much with the lone play, as you freely admit. Maybe squads are the things that could even the playing field... just a little bit. Say something like this: a fighter gets 20% of his squad, but a priest gets 30% or some other variation of percent for lone play.

Alfgut
March 3rd, 2013, 12:37
Longer battles would be nice, but too long battles would not be funny. Battles should take not less than 5 turns and no more than 15. I guess that people with bots playing fights with macros will moan about longer quests lol

Zab
March 3rd, 2013, 13:22
I think that the quest battles are long enough, if we were provided with the final hit information. However, I think battles between players should be quite a bit longer than the quest battles.....

carlosmt
March 4th, 2013, 08:22
The priests have a Shepard skill. If you want to give them more defense AND attack, I think this is the place to do it. I think you should .

I think that's the solution, the shepard skill is the place to add defense.

In addition some skills must be able to use in the way to the quest: healing, blessing, etc

Alex
March 5th, 2013, 23:30
Updating:

We are making these changes to the combat. They will be uploaded with the next update. These changes pretend to be final, though we probably will make some fine tunning.

- Overwhlemed target for multiple attackers to a same target has gone. This bonus will no more be applied. Instead, the target's defense will be divided among the players, weitghted by the attaker's ATT score. For instance, attacker A with att 200 and attacker B with att 50 are hitting a target with def 125. Attack A will find a defense of 100 and B will find a defense of 25.

- Defense attribute is now more important in fights. Now, a higher defense will avoid more hits. Furthermore, combat formulas to hit as been noticeably changed.

- Defense action has been separated on 4 different specialized actions, one for guild: Parry for fighters, Defense for priests, Dodge for scouts and Deflect for wizards (former dodge skill is now called lightning reflexes). They are based on different attributes depending on the guild (not necessary their main attribute) and they don't work in the same way. Priests has been benefit here being Defense the best one.

- A minimum damage has been set. We won't see again a hit for 2 HP with a 200 ATT.

- Members in Squads will last more time. They will be weighted by their own vit and not for the vit added to the squad. So now the main character will may "receive damage" though members in squad are still alive. Consecuently, they won't be blown in the first hit.

We are still studying more changes, on the damage and the length of the combats.

By the way, about the combat's timer, do you like it longer or shorter?

xBradenH
March 5th, 2013, 23:50
I'd say the combat timer is okay where it is right now (when there is no lag). This has been mentioned before, but just to include it again... Let's say I am the only person online in my party, would it possible for the turn to go through as soon as I submit my action? Same if there were more of us, allow the turn to skip the remaining time once all online members have submitted their action. Perhaps when PVP is in play, a longer combat timer may be necessary for attack coordination, but for now, it is okay.

Alex
March 6th, 2013, 05:06
Yes, it's possible. In fact, we have this pending from the original design but we could not make it until we make the new syncing module. We will try to bring it up with the ambushes, but no promises. If the timer would be increased, we'd wait to have this feature ready so if you are not interested in reading logs, etc, fights would not be so long. The said replenishment time between quests is also waiting for this feature to be brought.

A minichat will be also needed forcoordination in combats but it will have to wait necessarily(at minimum) to the new combat syncing module.

xBradenH
March 6th, 2013, 07:12
I do think everyone is interested in reading logs. I think that is usually done before the next action is selected-- at least it is for me.

Alex
April 3rd, 2013, 14:28
Besides the monsters' skills, how did you find the new combat system? Did you noticed a great difference on hit, damage, defense, etc?

Kurilia
April 4th, 2013, 05:30
My defense is now rewarding