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Kurgan
October 27th, 2012, 11:39
I'm having a mjaor problem with the new experience degradation for completing multiples of the same quest. Right now, my leveling is basically crippled, as well as for a few other people, I imagine. I know a lot of people don't like this new implementation. Here's my story...I'm leveling on the hardest quest I have access to, The Lone Highwayman. I'm barely getting half the experience I should, and I have a feeling as I'm stuck on this quest, it's only going to get worse. Not real sure why this was ever implemented, since basically, fun and interesting leveling has been replaced by clicking and grinding, with little reward. Something has to be done, and I have a few suggestions.

Options...Get rid of the new system for experience degradation (this is what most of us would prefer, I'm sure), or, make the decrease in experience less severe, and maybe put a minimum cap on it, such as 50-75% of the total experience offered by the quest, or reset the quest counter at sever reset.

Just a few suggestions to keep the game fair to everyone, not just large parties, and not just to benefit those that can grind all day, like me. We need to find a common ground, where we can enjoy leveling, but at the same time, the game isn't just about doing the same quests 100 times. Perhaps, even add new quests inbetween the current quests, and make more quests avaiable, for fairer play.

Any other thoughts on this?

Kurgan
October 27th, 2012, 12:29
You found treasure! The bounty contains 1094 gold coins and 2 items (http://www.otherwind.com/Game/Character.aspx). You earned 488 XP during the fight.

The above is from a quest that is supposed to be worth 1,200xp. We really need to address this.

Alex
October 27th, 2012, 18:28
The problem you are getting is that you have make already 20 times that quest, so you are getting that 50% reduction. But you only are repeating only 4 different quests, when you have available 30 quests (10 quests at 3 difficulty levels)!

People was leveling really too fast making hundreds of low quests where they get not harmed. We planned the game to make a level every 2-3 days and people was making 5 levels daily. If we go on on this way, people would advance faster than we developing new quests and equipment for higher levels. If we remove the reduction of xp, then we must lower the xp got on all quests, or increase xp needed to level up, what is the same in the practice, and these options are really worse for the players.

Also as I explained on a previious post, this game was not designed for making repetitive lower quests, too similar to a click-and-reward game, and this option, besides of being better that increase xp needed for leveling, also encourage players to move on for higher quests.

And next week we will bring ambushes... :)

Lukasz Kanarek
October 27th, 2012, 19:00
I can understend that ppl leveling too fast, but you need to understend that without the active skills we can't do all quests, so that's why we doing low quests. + exp in party is too low!!!!

Kurgan
October 28th, 2012, 07:20
I can understand if people are leveling too fast, that's why I offered some alternatives to the current system. Basically, everything is now click...click..click...with little sense of accomplishment, and minimal rewards. If you continue to cripple the game in this way, I honestly don't feel many will stay dedicated to the game, and it's development. The only reason some of us leveled so fast is because of dedication and hard work, not because the game was too easy. Right now, the best experience I can get, on the quests I can do, is around 300 - 400. I'm level 21. That's just not right.

Camille
October 28th, 2012, 15:50
This game is competitive and the degradation kills motivation. Maybe you need to make the leveling up requirements bigger? Anything we see as a loss is not fun. And seeing numbers go down is as good as a loss.

It's hard to encourage our followers to play. When they reach our rank we lose them. Not fun. I think we should be able to have a Master at the same rank but not above. I wouldn't have minded staying with the three I was popped out of this week and I miss the two I lost.

Alex
October 28th, 2012, 16:37
I...Right now, the best experience I can get, on the quests I can do, is around 300 - 400. I'm level 21. That's just not right.

You are getting that degradation only in 4 quests, because you repeated them a lot of times. You have 30 available quests with no degradation. Why you don't just move on and choose a different quest? If you were getting no enough xp for all quest, then we should modify the amount reduced, but not while you have a lot of available quests at full xp got.

Also don't forget that this is a beta demo. We have still to evaluate this with all features activated.

Alex
October 28th, 2012, 16:39
I can understend that ppl leveling too fast, but you need to understend that without the active skills we can't do all quests, so that's why we doing low quests. + exp in party is too low!!!!

We fully understand it, because that we reseted the quest counters and we are working really hard to activate ambushes and active skills asap!

Alex
October 28th, 2012, 16:49
This game is competitive and the degradation kills motivation. Maybe you need to make the leveling up requirements bigger? Anything we see as a loss is not fun. And seeing numbers go down is as good as a loss.

I understand what you say. Maybe you see the xp reduction so negative becuase you played before add this feature, maybe not. If new players also see this reduction as so discouraging feature, the we would have no option to remove it but instead, we would have to implement one of the alternatives: increase XP needed to level up, or even remove lower quests from the available quests (set to quests a maximum size in addition to the minimum size). In my opinion, both alternatives decrease much more the leveling and fun of the player, bnecause now at least you get the full xp from fresh quests and also from ambushes, but this xp will be also less worhty if we increase the xp needed to level up.

Again, we have to wait and see how this works with ambushes and active skills activated. And also, we are thinking about an option to refresh quests (and reset the xp reduction) for active players but not for bots.

Camille
October 28th, 2012, 17:01
I understand what you say. Maybe you see the xp reduction so negative becuase you played before add this feature, maybe not.

No, it's just plain psychological. You say there are 30 other levels . . . well, when most of the upper levels I cannot play even if they are offered because I lose more health that has to be healed than gold I win. For now, that's 4570 gold. So I can only do a handful of quests that give me more gold than I spend otherwise I can't play because I'm dead. Plus I'm doing the same effort and waiting and waiting for the ticker to go down and I'm getting less and less. Very discouraging.


increase XP needed to level up

This is viable. in Mousehunt, it took me 1 and a half YEARS to level up from Countess to Duchess. When I played Knighthood, it was the same thing. The farther along you go the harder it gets to level up. The rank means more then.


but this xp will be also less worhty if we increase the xp needed to level up.

This is true. You are achieving the same ends - slow down the leveling but one is positive and pushes a player onward and what you have now is negative and feels more like a punishment.

Alex
October 28th, 2012, 17:35
Camille you talk with a lot of sense and we will take in consideration your thoughts, indeed. Anyway I still think that increasing xp needed to level up will make really harder to level up ALWAYS, but the current system let people who move on with quests and ambushes other parties won't have this handicap, and don't forget about whatI said about refreshing quest counts.

Btw I see the ranking ordered by recent experience and people are getting lot of xp!! And we have not still uploaded ambushes, quest refreshing, active skils...

Camille
October 28th, 2012, 18:08
Btw I see the ranking ordered by recent experience and people are getting lot of xp!! And we have not still uploaded ambushes, quest refreshing, active skils...

LOLOLOLO! I realize I've just lost all credibility for my whine. But I do hate seeing that 1200 xp quest shrinking shrinking shrinking.

Kurgan
October 28th, 2012, 18:50
I think the challenge here is to keep the game progressive, and open-ended. I don't wanna see people level too fast, and quit due to lack of a challenge. However, I hate to see people grinding on quests that are far too low for their level, just because every quests within their "range" is exhausted. I know it's a minor speed bump in development, but I'm sure together we can come up with a solution.

Isildur
October 29th, 2012, 06:41
Probably my case is not the most usual (with 132 pow and 5 followers in my squad things are quite different for me, as I have access to many quests), but at this moment I find the game perfectly leveled. Highest quests are still too difficult, and I often fail when attempting to complete them, so I still find mid-level (half my "party level" size) quests still of great use, and keep getting a lot of XP from them.

I think my case as a "big" solo player could be the same as lower players who play with parties to get access to bigger quests. And in the end, I think this is what should be, as the focus of the devs is creating a truly social game. And once ambushes are activated, playing solo will most probably mean being ambushed and defeated often, so it won't make sense playing alone anymore. Once all game functionality is working I'll be able to give a more accurate evaluation ;).

Just my 0'02 :)

Flame
October 29th, 2012, 10:10
You are getting that degradation only in 4 quests, because you repeated them a lot of times. You have 30 available quests with no degradation. Why you don't just move on and choose a different quest? If you were getting no enough xp for all quest, then we should modify the amount reduced, but not while you have a lot of available quests at full xp got.

Also don't forget that this is a beta demo. We have still to evaluate this with all features activated.


Yes, 30 available quests. But let's be honest here... Unless you're in a party there are some quests you simply cannot do. Maybe once special skills are implemented it'll be possible, but right now some of the quests on hard... Can't do them alone. So then you party up, do the quests on hard and STILL see your xp go down... Not fun!

Alex
October 29th, 2012, 11:42
So, again, we will have to wait to ambushes and active skills to see the global performance. They will be available soon!

Camille
October 29th, 2012, 17:22
I'm not convinced that people want to level up so fast. Of course, it's better than a kick in the face . . . but still, I used the example of Mousehunt earlier . . . it can take over a year to level up just once. And Mousehunt players are rabid lovers of that game. Loyalty is huge. In Battlestations (a lot like this game) I level up maybe once every 3 weeks or so. If the activites, collectiing, and competition is attractive and satisfying, people will stick with it. I think you can spread the titles farther apart and make the leveling half of what it is, easily. Things easily gotten are not as valued.

Flame
October 29th, 2012, 18:31
Also, as far as leveling up goes (and I remember Camille posted this somewhere, but I can't remember where nor what the response was), but I think it would be beneficial for everyone playing if you could have followers who are the same rank or below. Like, Hunters can have followers who are Hunters, Thieves, etc., but no higher. It's rather discouraging when you bring in a friend to play and they follow you only to get popped out when they achieve the same rank as you. That's something that should be celebrated and enjoyed, but instead it's sad because now our power goes down too... :(

Alex
October 29th, 2012, 19:15
Also, as far as leveling up goes (and I remember Camille posted this somewhere, but I can't remember where nor what the response was), but I think it would be beneficial for everyone playing if you could have followers who are the same rank or below. Like, Hunters can have followers who are Hunters, Thieves, etc., but no higher. It's rather discouraging when you bring in a friend to play and they follow you only to get popped out when they achieve the same rank as you. That's something that should be celebrated and enjoyed, but instead it's sad because now our power goes down too... :(

[This is off-topic and it should be moved from this thread].

Your alternative makes no diference for your problem; when he matches your rank he won't leave you, but he will do anyway when he surpasses your rank. We have reasons to bet for a strict pyramidal structure and we built our game over this principle. So our design, both conceptual and technical design, doesn't allow unenderless strings follower-master.

Lukasz Kanarek
October 29th, 2012, 19:20
I tried to be positive about this futer, but now I really think that it's bad. I have 21 "yellow" quests, the other ones are too hard for mage now, so I don't know what to do now, I can't progress :(
Also because of that, guild masters and ppl with many followers have too big advantage over other players, they've got many more quests and they're are mutch stronger. I play so many hours, quest after quest and I just think that is not fair, that i can't compete with them because thay have followers and I don't.

Camille
October 30th, 2012, 02:22
I tried to be positive about this futer, but now I really think that it's bad. I have 21 "yellow" quests, the other ones are too hard for mage now, so I don't know what to do now, I can't progress :(
Also because of that, guild masters and ppl with many followers have too big advantage over other players, they've got many more quests and they're are mutch stronger. I play so many hours, quest after quest and I just think that is not fair, that i can't compete with them because thay have followers and I don't.

Lukasz,

I have 10 followers. I nagged a good number of those into adding. Some won't play. I knew that but I couldn't rank up without followers (they kept matching my rank and popping out) so I got a couple to add just so I could do that. My brother decided to play which is cool - which reminds me that my other brother hasn't added yet. I sent skype messages to other gamer friends (Agnus Belli). I sent a spam message on FB to everyone I thought might like this sort of thing (out of 52 people, about 10 have added - only a couple in my guild). I have also posted messages in gaming groups I belong to. But Crystal has been the biggest cheerleader. She's got a training skype room made. She gets people into parties. AND I was looking at the Fighters guild page everyday and sending friendly messages to new people who had no masters yet. At least 4 have joined me like that. One left but the others have stuck. It takes work. It might not be fun for you but I don't think FAIR is the appropriate word. You will get out of this game what you put in. And true true true, quest degradation is a very negative unrewarding part of gameplay. I've already suggested a solution which has the same function. Gamers are fickle. We should not be punished for playing your game.

Flame
October 30th, 2012, 10:43
[This is off-topic and it should be moved from this thread].

Your alternative makes no diference for your problem; when he matches your rank he won't leave you, but he will do anyway when he surpasses your rank. We have reasons to bet for a strict pyramidal structure and we built our game over this principle. So our design, both conceptual and technical design, doesn't allow unenderless strings follower-master.


Who says he's going to surpass? ;-)

Flame
October 30th, 2012, 10:47
Think about it... I'm always trying to stay one step ahead of my followers so that they Don't pop out of me. I've been lucky so far. But there are some people playing who legitly want to be with the person they're following. So they have to either slow down their progression so they don't match and pop out or the person they're following has to work extra hard to rank up. My follower Jade did this recently. She slowed her ranking until I was able to promote to Hunter. The next day she promoted to thief. But if a thief could follow a thief, that would at least buy the master some extra time to promote without discouraging the follower to slow down some.

Camille
November 1st, 2012, 12:07
whine whine whine:


01/11/2012 18:00:34
http://www.guildmasters.com/App_Themes/GuildMasters/Images/Log/followers.png
Your follower, Fighter Agnus Belli (http://www.guildmasters.com/Game/Profile.aspx?IdProfile=570) matched your rank level and had to leave you.

Alex
November 1st, 2012, 19:08
I tried to be positive about this futer, but now I really think that it's bad. I have 21 "yellow" quests, the other ones are too hard for mage now, so I don't know what to do now, I can't progress :(
Also because of that, guild masters and ppl with many followers have too big advantage over other players, they've got many more quests and they're are mutch stronger. I play so many hours, quest after quest and I just think that is not fair, that i can't compete with them because thay have followers and I don't.

Why don't you join a party? The xp reduction is weighted exactly in the same way that the sharing of xp for the party members, so you won't be penalized for partying. Also, partying you will win battles you can not win alone, and you will have access to more quests. Playing the game alone, you can earn xp faster for low quests but the xp reduction also will grow faster, and playing alone won't give you benefits, just the opposite.

Alex
November 1st, 2012, 19:23
Next week we will implement a button in every quests to clear the xp reduction for all difficulty levels of the quest you are clearing. It will have a slight cost.

So this xp reduction still can get achieve its goals:



Discourage bots to repeat the same quest once and once again.
Encourage people to move on.
Get longer quests more profitable than shorter quests.



Before this measure, making twice a quest were more profitable that making once a quest at double distance. XP was the same but the quest is easier. With this measure, repeating the shorter quest make it less profitable than the longer quest, which reduction increase slower.

But if you really like a quest and want to make it more times, with this button you can still clear the xp reduction and start again.

And don't forget incoming ambushes (we will bring them next week), which will be a source of xp and it won't have any reduction.

Orik
November 1st, 2012, 19:35
Hourray!

Isildur
November 2nd, 2012, 04:16
LIKE!!!

Alex
November 2nd, 2012, 18:14
Next week we will implement a button in every quests to clear the xp reduction for all difficulty levels of the quest you are clearing. It will have a slight cost.

So this xp reduction still can get achieve its goals:



Discourage bots to repeat the same quest once and once again.
Encourage people to move on.
Get longer quests more profitable than shorter quests.



Before this measure, making twice a quest were more profitable that making once a quest at double distance. XP was the same but the quest is easier. With this measure, repeating the shorter quest make it less profitable than the longer quest, which reduction increase slower.

But if you really like a quest and want to make it more times, with this button you can still clear the xp reduction and start again.

And don't forget incoming ambushes (we will bring them next week), which will be a source of xp and it won't have any reduction.

One more thing. We are changing just now the formula for the XP reduction to be less restrictive. Now, though you repeat a quest thousand times, instead tending to zero, the minimum XP earned will be a 20% of the original XP. This will also make less sharp the curve of xp degradation. It is this or to multiply by 5 the xp needed to increase levels, what would be more restrictive to level up, though maybe with this measure we will still have to increase a little the xp requirement to level up (we will see when all ambushes and skills be implemented).

It's the most we can do to preserve the game system and probably this will force us to invest more resources to make higher quests and items sooner than planed. [:c]

Hope you like these two last measures will make happy all players! :)ยก

carlosmt
November 3rd, 2012, 18:23
I like so! In other RPG you gain more XP the first time you kill a new monster. It's similar to this.
I don't like have to do the same easy quest again and again. I try medium and hard levels now... looking for more XP.
Have to gain more XP to up levels... wouldn't be a good thing.

The NEW formula looks VERY GOOD change!

Alex
November 3rd, 2012, 18:44
I like so! In other RPG you gain more XP the first time you kill a new monster. It's similar to this.
I don't like have to do the same easy quest again and again. I try medium and hard levels now... looking for more XP.
Have to gain more XP to up levels... wouldn't be a good thing.

The NEW formula looks VERY GOOD change!

Exactly! In Middle Earth and Rolemaster, classic RPG's which inspired to us, you get a 5x the first time you do something, 2x second time, and if you make something a lot of times you will get your xp reduced tending to zero at the dungeon master's discretion.

Orik
November 3rd, 2012, 19:25
I was actually disliking the new way xp gain when it first came out, but I actually found I could do all quest instead of just repeating the same one over and over again with the same leveling speed, I believe you'll have to upgrade the xp requirement to level up as I'm still leveling as fast(if its not faster).. and in a few days I'll get over 10 velocity which will be twice as fast as the second fastest:>> - maybe I'm a little to much into the game :V.

So what I believe is the new xp curve will not slow down the leveling speed enough.

Alex
November 4th, 2012, 08:48
The formula we updated yesterday was going to a minimum of 10% only. We have just updated again the formula to tend to the announced minimum of 20%. You should get a better xp share now. ;)

And yes, we maybe will have to change the level up requirements between a 25% and a 100% (but not a 500% as somebody suggested!!!) We will study it when all be in play (ambushes) and some time later we would make this increase.

Camille
November 4th, 2012, 09:16
[This is off-topic and it should be moved from this thread].

Your alternative makes no diference for your problem; when he matches your rank he won't leave you, but he will do anyway when he surpasses your rank. We have reasons to bet for a strict pyramidal structure and we built our game over this principle. So our design, both conceptual and technical design, doesn't allow unenderless strings follower-master.


but if you simply make the distance between ranks bigger then this will not happen so fast. And if it does, then it is well deserved.

Orik
November 4th, 2012, 09:25
The distance between rank is getting bigger and bigger with each rank. :)

Lukasz Kanarek
November 4th, 2012, 09:25
Orik sorry but you have no idea what you're talking. You are a GUILD MASTER, you have some strong followers, you can do many quests, you have bonuses from skills, right? Stop looking only at yourself, other players have really hard time, especially mages, noone need them in party, we can't survive many quests because we don't have mutch vit/def! My quests give me now max 350 exp, i have 35lvl, I spend like 400k gold on items with vit/def, it's CRAZY. Like I said before this exp degradation should not be active untill we don't have active skills.
Also other ppl don't play as mutch as you are and they're level-up quite slow.

Alex
November 4th, 2012, 10:39
This is a beta demo to be tested and, eventually, contribute to the developtment. Everybody is free to wait for the full game to play, so meanwhile, just have a bit of patience. Ambushes, a new source of xp, and active skills will be broguht this week. When you will can cast fireballs, pyromaniac wizards will be claimed in every party :)

Camille
November 4th, 2012, 11:12
The distance between rank is getting bigger and bigger with each rank. :)


Is it really? No it is not. Because the amount of xp increases at about the same increments. It is just as easy to rank up from 25 to 26 as it is from 8 to 9.

The first ranks should be relatively easy to get . . . for people to get a good taste in their mouths . .. but it should get longer and longer in between leveling up just so the level actually means something! People will have asense of accomplishment in getting it. There is nothing glorious in quick leveling. In fact, it becomes a bore.

Orik
November 4th, 2012, 11:22
Is it really? No it is not. Because the amount of xp increases at about the same increments. It is just as easy to rank up from 25 to 26 as it is from 8 to 9.

The first ranks should be relatively easy to get . . . for people to get a good taste in their mouths . .. but it should get longer and longer in between leveling up just so the level actually means something! People will have asense of accomplishment in getting it. There is nothing glorious in quick leveling. In fact, it becomes a bore.


I was talking about promotion,
Levels and Rank are two different things, I agree that we level up to fast, but the rank leveling is just fine, especially if the level speed is adjusted it is going to be hard to rank up.

Alex
November 4th, 2012, 12:17
The distance between rank is getting bigger and bigger with each rank. :)

Is it really?

Really!!!

Experience got from quests increase in an order of N^1 with your size. It's lienar.
Experience needed to level up increase in an order of N^3 with your level. It's exponential with order 3.

They are just maths. Distance between levels is getting bigger and bigger. The only thing that could make it constant would be if your size is increased by order 2 with your level, that is, if every time your size = level*level, what is near impossible above level 10.

Math demonstration:

Level Up requirement: 10*lvl^3
XP from quests: around 30*size
The amount of quests needed to level up (before xp reduction) is equal to [ 10*(lvl+1)^3 - 10*lvl^3 ] / 30 * size

Level up tends to a constant when its derivate tends to zero: [30*(lvl +1)^2 - 30] / 30 * size => 0 This is ONLY when size => lvl^2

When your size keep being greater than level^2, level up is easier with levels. This case is near impossible for levels over 10.
When your size keep being lesser than level^2, level up is harder with levels. This is the actual scenario.

Our design charts shows that the amount of quests needed to level up is increasing slowly with the player's level and it decreases slightly when you have enough level to add a new squad member.

Though level up is always harder for each level, when you rank and add a new follower, you may notice a decrease on your requirements, this is because your requirements went pretty far of what it should be and adding a squad member takes you to the normal flow.

:+) I'm sorry for my language limitations to explain it at english.

Isildur
November 4th, 2012, 13:40
This is my experience with the game:

In the beginning, you don't have a clue about what the game is about. You just do what seems to be logical: gain as much XP and gold as possible, and grow more and more. In this scenario, fast leveling is funny, and easy to understand: the more you play, the more you grow.

Then you reach a point where you play and play, and levels are harder to reach. And you also have to start thinking on followers to keep growing. The social part becomes much more enjoyable than the "quest and win" part; players 10 levels below you can be more powerful if they have more followers. And if you manage your followers correctly, you don't really need many slots available in your squad, as all stats/power will go bottom-up if you put your lesser followers with your higher followers. Lots of space for strategy... and politics. Playing solo becomes useless after some time; or at least not as profitable as in the beginning.

And note that we're still lacking one of the core features of the game: ambushes. As soon as they're enabled, questing alone won't be safe anymore. A well balanced party of lower level players can easily beat you if you're playing alone. And not to mention that playing alone you will "burn" quests you can do faster, so you'll get much less for the same effort.

So I'm just bitting my nails waiting for ambushes and skills/spells being enabled, so that we can get a clear idea of the whole picture about GM ;).